I left Christianity for similar reasons and think original sin is false, and partly powered by a fear of eternal damnation that is not something a worthwhile God would ever commit to for a being. Ufology research and over a decade of meditation around causing mystical experiences (https://classpunk.substack.com/p/on-meditation-and-mystical-experiences) has caused me to go from agnosticism to heavily leaning towards belief that everyone who is conscious is an immortal soul that came from God-- but unlike popular theist notions, in my opinion, I see God as at least being an infinitely loving primordial force, that equally embodies the masculine and feminine rather than favoring the masculine-- whether or not God is somehow able to be a fully conscious being in some way-- and also, I see God as being the sum-total of everything going along with Spinoza's view.
But whether or not I'm wrong on those points, and regardless of someone's beliefs on metaphysics or lack thereof, to feel loved and at peace, to not buy into any form of self-hatred inclusive of original sin, to hope the same for others, and to deepen the understanding of the connection between this and virtuousness or moral excellence, is something I think creates more meaning in life and is thus worth consistently pursuing.
Interesting that “fruits” are mentioned as much that is putrid has been borne in the past several years. And who bore it? Children of the devil. They may claim to follow Christ but their sins out them. I am deeply saddened to read this post, knowing there is only one way or the other. There is no safe, mushy middle in which to rest in the battle of all battles. Your soul is won or lost, and you get to choose. Until a man has a true interaction with the Creator of the universe, he will seek comfort in all the wrong places. The mind and the intellect is no place to hide, as brilliant as you are. You were hurt? If the church caused you to lose faith in God, then your faith was in people. I have seen miracles, prayers answered, and supernatural healing. There is no higher excitement or reward than in Christ and I could wish for you nothing better than to find it. You do such excellent work.
Neither fanaticism, nor goodness, nor adoption of the Bible as the word of God, nor lack of sins, nor any form of correct intellectual adherence, nor prayer cast - all these in no way serve as the means of salvation. It is either offered, or it is not. It is not something we can 'uncreate' - nor is it something we can 'create'. We do not hold that power.
Making salvation a difficult task, has sent more people to hell than have a thousand Devils.
I appreciate your reply, and I agree salvation is found on none of those things but rather in the person of Jesus Christ. Now, the “difficult task” part confuses me. Salvation is intentionally within the grasp of even small children, “for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” (Matthew 19:14) I’m thinking Occam’s razor-simple. I rest in the knowledge that a way has been made for whosoever will…believe.
Interesting. Looks like woke-ism (or whatever they call it now) is repeating the exact same problem as the religions that it claims to dislike, only they call it "privilege" instead of "original sin." And they call it "cancel culture" instead of "excommunication". And so on. And unlike Christianity, they don't even *pretend* to believe in forgiveness! UGH!
Yes in Judea-Christian mindset also known for ontological insecurity, eternal fear because of an external God that is eager for punishment and revenge, in Eastern it’s metaphysical deep sleep (sheep), sleepwalking…..
It's a shame Christianity traumatises and disllusions so many people into atheism due to it's flawed concepts. God does not expect perfection from us, it would be non sensical to believe this, if one believes in God then part of that is to understand that only God is perfect and we're created imperfect in order to struggle and apply ourselves in bettering ourselves; that's the whole point of life. God does not expect perfection.
We are not born in sin, rejecting God because Christianity doesn't make sense doesn't make sense, there are other religions that have completely different (coherent and sensible) theologies.
Ultimately, subjective morality is the reason we're in this mess.
"The Eastern Orthodox, Eastern Catholics, and Oriental Orthodox, by contrast, do not believe that man inherits the burden of Adam's sin, but they believe that it is the source of the fallen nature of man..."
Just as a vibration is not a sound until it is heard, sin is only known by its penalty. The animals know no sin, because they are not penalized for it - yet they do the very same thing - and have done so long before man was ever around. Our DNA drives our desires, and this existed long before man could have ever impacted it in the least.
Thus the Eastern Orthodoxy is a distinction without a difference - and both East and West notions have been falsified by our DNA. The notion is a zombie theory. It is dead as an idea, but just does not know it yet.
In orthodox theology the nature of man is as it was when he was first formed, in the image of god. What the fall has done is expanding the available options of actions to those defined as evil.
Animals don’t know that they have committed sin because they don’t know good from evil. We on the other hand know so we can avoid the evil tendencies (continuing with the Christian analogy) that was acquired at the fall.
In a sense I agree with you that sin is known by its penalty. However, the thing to remember is that penalty is automatic and flows from committing sin NOT from some conscious judgement by some higher being every time a sin is committed.
In Orthodox Christian theology, the goal is Theosis, a concept which ties many aspects of this together.
How about you just live and let live? If some believe in Christ and the story of the Bible but you don’t, your choice. You’ve heard the Gospel, apparently, and you reject it. If I think it’s a beautiful story of a loving, holy God who built a beautiful world, asked His children to obey ONE
little rule (which they did not), and then spent generations and centuries spinning a love story to reconcile them to Himself, leave me in my delusion. I live with gratitude, hope, and peace, even when the world is in chaos. Why deny me that? I’m sorry if you’ve met imperfect Christians, of which I am one, we aren’t Jesus, we just know Him and follow Him to the best of our abilities. I respect you, but won’t malign and ridicule, and attempt to tear down what you believe. Please grant me the same respect.
Because, mankind is captive. We do not reside in a beautiful world as children who violated one little rule. We are suffering hostages - and this story is the confiscated and corrupted property of mankind. I want it back. It is not the property of the Church.
This 'belief' is not benign - it insists what is truth and enforces it upon mankind its victim, and always has. It contains a threat, under which people labor and suffer as captive children -
I was abused by this movement, along with billions of other victims...
The story's writers had mankind's history exterminated so they could spin this lie as truth. - it is a dark movement - I oppose it, just as I oppose fake science spun to accomplish the same ignorance (should I let it also go unchallenged?).
Both movements have a LONG trail of dead bodies and suffering behind them. At least science sometimes advances in its understanding.
I get that. I would love a neutral discussion, but people don’t seem to be able to do that. Of course, as a believer in a loving God who longs for relationship with His children, I love to tell others about the hope we have. You tell me about your disbelief, and you’re free (and welcome by me) to do so. But if I tell you about my belief, I’m “proselytizing”, or “announcing without being asked”, or whatever. You think I’m deceived. Ok. I think the same about you. There IS a Truth, like it or not, believe it or not. We don’t define it, It defines us. But I do respect your freedom and won’t disparage you for your faith. You DO have faith in your belief system; everyone does. I’ve been offended, harmed, maybe abused, by living without Jesus. If I tell you about how He has changed me and my life, you don’t have to accept or believe it, and I welcome your story, but I won’t necessarily “convert” to your faith, either. Anyway, time will tell what is true, just as it has to a large degree already. Best wishes, and thank you so much for responding, and allowing my response to you . It’s a privilege.
This is like the burglar claiming that the homeowner wanting their stuff back, is somehow restricting the burglar's right to work. I am not dictating what career you adopt otherwise, just stop breaking into my home and stealing shit.
Morals is when you impose your belief upon someone else. Ethics is when you tell someone to stop doing that. This is the latter. ('you' being the will of a sect - not you personally)
A second aspect of this argument is this: Don't conflate my criticism of Christianity's regard for the corrupted Genesis story, as a condemnation of your faith in Christ. Those are two different things. Part of the mind trick being played is - for you to defend every element of what they taught you as one single belief... it is not.
Praying for you, as I deeply appreciate your posts on the 🥕 and what we all experienced from 2020 forward. The works of ANE scholar Dr. Michael S. Heiser (RIP, Feb. 2023) have been helpful to me.
Yes, religion comes in many flavors. I only just believe in the Golden Rule, "do unto others..." which is contrary to the sin and damnation rhetoric that those who preach are most guilty of.
I am amazed, however, by the miracle of all living things on our planet and sometimes attribute this perfection to a "creator" but also accept that evolution is a fact.
As always, your posts are thought-provoking, this one was especially so.
“Burdening a hapless creature with the sole responsibility to bring only perfection into the presence of God, …”
In fact, that’s not what God does. He gave us his son who paid the price for us, so that if we believe, he sees in us the righteousness of Jesus. ”For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.“ Romans 5:19
There is ample empirical evidence that Jesus rose from the dead. And if he rose from the dead, he is who he said he was. And if he is who he said he was, the whole Hebrew and Christian Bible is entirely consistent. Jesus is pictured throughout the Hebrew Bible, by multiple authors writing hundreds of years before he appeared on earth.
”For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners..."
This is the real message. It is one of enslavement - it does not matter the good news one tenders after this crime - the dastardly deed is already done. "The reason I stole your money is... is... so I could invest it and return your money to you 3-fold. See, how good a person I am!!!"
It is the BS of the predator - to offer the good news, after the crime.
This is why Shemyaza (aka Enlil, Saturn, or Yahweh) and the Watchers could not be forgiven for their abuse, rape, enslavement, experimentation on mankind in Enoch I - The crime was too heinous - and whether allegorical or real, this was in the mind of mankind from ancient times for a reason...
"The reason I stole your money is... is... so I could invest it and return your money to you 3-fold. See, how good a person I am!!!"
That’s an interesting comparison. The way I see it, though, is that everything I have, God gave me in the first place. I lost it as a consequence of wanting to be God. After I gave up on that idea, he bought back everything I had lost, and gave it back to me infinitely increased.
OK, this is a predator's trick called quo facto malo. "I stole your money because you were prideful." I made triple the original amount by putting you into slavery to enrich myself in the meantime... But in my merciful nature, I am willing to now share your original money back with you (but I am keeping the fruit of your work and suffering).
My son would not be accountable for my corruption. To hold him accountable in that context would be THE corruption of the predator (not simply a mistake in judgment).
I was raised an atheist by atheist. This is the kind of thing I would’ve written in my formidable years to make myself worthy of their praise. Funny thing is, these same atheist think Lord Gore’s carbon credit system is earth justice.
You sound just like the 17 year old after his first semester at University. You seem so angry, but why? Common you're a smart guy, tell us how you would have done it.
If you don't believe in the Bible it's even easier. Just don't think about it and go on with the rest of your life. Nothing ethical about it. You're arguing about something you obviously don't believe in. Just move along and don't write about it.
No, the story of mankind's origins was appropriated (stolen from us, and corrupted into this horror story) - I have a right to this story - free from oppression. It is the property of mankind, not the Church.
Thank you. It's a complex and obfuscated saga, one I am telling slowly through my blog. While I cannot reveal everything I have been involved in, and am involved in now - I can summarize many of the inferences I have drawn from those programs and research initiatives. The world is not as it is presented to us.
Ok. If that's the case then the powers that be have a definite advantage. The people you find here would most likely be part of that. That you have found some revelation as to the true nature would be a defect and one that would be rectified I would think.
My religion never made sense to me. I remember being told by a priest when I was a child that I could burn in Hell if I sinned and he went on to describe in detail what it felt like to burn for eternity. It was torture inflicted on innocent children by very warped, twisted men, I lasted with this religion until I was 18yrs old and left without looking back. "You shall know them by their fruits", indeed.
I left Christianity for similar reasons and think original sin is false, and partly powered by a fear of eternal damnation that is not something a worthwhile God would ever commit to for a being. Ufology research and over a decade of meditation around causing mystical experiences (https://classpunk.substack.com/p/on-meditation-and-mystical-experiences) has caused me to go from agnosticism to heavily leaning towards belief that everyone who is conscious is an immortal soul that came from God-- but unlike popular theist notions, in my opinion, I see God as at least being an infinitely loving primordial force, that equally embodies the masculine and feminine rather than favoring the masculine-- whether or not God is somehow able to be a fully conscious being in some way-- and also, I see God as being the sum-total of everything going along with Spinoza's view.
But whether or not I'm wrong on those points, and regardless of someone's beliefs on metaphysics or lack thereof, to feel loved and at peace, to not buy into any form of self-hatred inclusive of original sin, to hope the same for others, and to deepen the understanding of the connection between this and virtuousness or moral excellence, is something I think creates more meaning in life and is thus worth consistently pursuing.
Interesting that “fruits” are mentioned as much that is putrid has been borne in the past several years. And who bore it? Children of the devil. They may claim to follow Christ but their sins out them. I am deeply saddened to read this post, knowing there is only one way or the other. There is no safe, mushy middle in which to rest in the battle of all battles. Your soul is won or lost, and you get to choose. Until a man has a true interaction with the Creator of the universe, he will seek comfort in all the wrong places. The mind and the intellect is no place to hide, as brilliant as you are. You were hurt? If the church caused you to lose faith in God, then your faith was in people. I have seen miracles, prayers answered, and supernatural healing. There is no higher excitement or reward than in Christ and I could wish for you nothing better than to find it. You do such excellent work.
Neither fanaticism, nor goodness, nor adoption of the Bible as the word of God, nor lack of sins, nor any form of correct intellectual adherence, nor prayer cast - all these in no way serve as the means of salvation. It is either offered, or it is not. It is not something we can 'uncreate' - nor is it something we can 'create'. We do not hold that power.
Making salvation a difficult task, has sent more people to hell than have a thousand Devils.
I appreciate your reply, and I agree salvation is found on none of those things but rather in the person of Jesus Christ. Now, the “difficult task” part confuses me. Salvation is intentionally within the grasp of even small children, “for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” (Matthew 19:14) I’m thinking Occam’s razor-simple. I rest in the knowledge that a way has been made for whosoever will…believe.
https://substack.com/profile/100124894-steven-berger/note/c-51375173
Interesting. Looks like woke-ism (or whatever they call it now) is repeating the exact same problem as the religions that it claims to dislike, only they call it "privilege" instead of "original sin." And they call it "cancel culture" instead of "excommunication". And so on. And unlike Christianity, they don't even *pretend* to believe in forgiveness! UGH!
Yes in Judea-Christian mindset also known for ontological insecurity, eternal fear because of an external God that is eager for punishment and revenge, in Eastern it’s metaphysical deep sleep (sheep), sleepwalking…..
It's a shame Christianity traumatises and disllusions so many people into atheism due to it's flawed concepts. God does not expect perfection from us, it would be non sensical to believe this, if one believes in God then part of that is to understand that only God is perfect and we're created imperfect in order to struggle and apply ourselves in bettering ourselves; that's the whole point of life. God does not expect perfection.
We are not born in sin, rejecting God because Christianity doesn't make sense doesn't make sense, there are other religions that have completely different (coherent and sensible) theologies.
Ultimately, subjective morality is the reason we're in this mess.
Very true indeed. It all goes back to the patriarchal skydaddy religions invented by relatively primitive men.
Original Sin is a Catholic concept adopted by Protestants.
It doesn’t exist in the Orthodox Church.
https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/4814/how-do-the-catholic-and-orthodox-views-of-original-sin-differ
"The Eastern Orthodox, Eastern Catholics, and Oriental Orthodox, by contrast, do not believe that man inherits the burden of Adam's sin, but they believe that it is the source of the fallen nature of man..."
Just as a vibration is not a sound until it is heard, sin is only known by its penalty. The animals know no sin, because they are not penalized for it - yet they do the very same thing - and have done so long before man was ever around. Our DNA drives our desires, and this existed long before man could have ever impacted it in the least.
Thus the Eastern Orthodoxy is a distinction without a difference - and both East and West notions have been falsified by our DNA. The notion is a zombie theory. It is dead as an idea, but just does not know it yet.
The distinction is clear.
In orthodox theology the nature of man is as it was when he was first formed, in the image of god. What the fall has done is expanding the available options of actions to those defined as evil.
Animals don’t know that they have committed sin because they don’t know good from evil. We on the other hand know so we can avoid the evil tendencies (continuing with the Christian analogy) that was acquired at the fall.
In a sense I agree with you that sin is known by its penalty. However, the thing to remember is that penalty is automatic and flows from committing sin NOT from some conscious judgement by some higher being every time a sin is committed.
In Orthodox Christian theology, the goal is Theosis, a concept which ties many aspects of this together.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosis_(Eastern_Christian_theology)
You'd like David Bentley Hart. Original sin and eternal perdition are incorrect readings of the Bible, and many in the Orthodox Church see this.
How about you just live and let live? If some believe in Christ and the story of the Bible but you don’t, your choice. You’ve heard the Gospel, apparently, and you reject it. If I think it’s a beautiful story of a loving, holy God who built a beautiful world, asked His children to obey ONE
little rule (which they did not), and then spent generations and centuries spinning a love story to reconcile them to Himself, leave me in my delusion. I live with gratitude, hope, and peace, even when the world is in chaos. Why deny me that? I’m sorry if you’ve met imperfect Christians, of which I am one, we aren’t Jesus, we just know Him and follow Him to the best of our abilities. I respect you, but won’t malign and ridicule, and attempt to tear down what you believe. Please grant me the same respect.
Because, mankind is captive. We do not reside in a beautiful world as children who violated one little rule. We are suffering hostages - and this story is the confiscated and corrupted property of mankind. I want it back. It is not the property of the Church.
This 'belief' is not benign - it insists what is truth and enforces it upon mankind its victim, and always has. It contains a threat, under which people labor and suffer as captive children -
I was abused by this movement, along with billions of other victims...
The story's writers had mankind's history exterminated so they could spin this lie as truth. - it is a dark movement - I oppose it, just as I oppose fake science spun to accomplish the same ignorance (should I let it also go unchallenged?).
Both movements have a LONG trail of dead bodies and suffering behind them. At least science sometimes advances in its understanding.
I get that. I would love a neutral discussion, but people don’t seem to be able to do that. Of course, as a believer in a loving God who longs for relationship with His children, I love to tell others about the hope we have. You tell me about your disbelief, and you’re free (and welcome by me) to do so. But if I tell you about my belief, I’m “proselytizing”, or “announcing without being asked”, or whatever. You think I’m deceived. Ok. I think the same about you. There IS a Truth, like it or not, believe it or not. We don’t define it, It defines us. But I do respect your freedom and won’t disparage you for your faith. You DO have faith in your belief system; everyone does. I’ve been offended, harmed, maybe abused, by living without Jesus. If I tell you about how He has changed me and my life, you don’t have to accept or believe it, and I welcome your story, but I won’t necessarily “convert” to your faith, either. Anyway, time will tell what is true, just as it has to a large degree already. Best wishes, and thank you so much for responding, and allowing my response to you . It’s a privilege.
Ok; thank you again. I am not trying to break in. Apologies.
This is like the burglar claiming that the homeowner wanting their stuff back, is somehow restricting the burglar's right to work. I am not dictating what career you adopt otherwise, just stop breaking into my home and stealing shit.
Morals is when you impose your belief upon someone else. Ethics is when you tell someone to stop doing that. This is the latter. ('you' being the will of a sect - not you personally)
A second aspect of this argument is this: Don't conflate my criticism of Christianity's regard for the corrupted Genesis story, as a condemnation of your faith in Christ. Those are two different things. Part of the mind trick being played is - for you to defend every element of what they taught you as one single belief... it is not.
Praying for you, as I deeply appreciate your posts on the 🥕 and what we all experienced from 2020 forward. The works of ANE scholar Dr. Michael S. Heiser (RIP, Feb. 2023) have been helpful to me.
Yes, religion comes in many flavors. I only just believe in the Golden Rule, "do unto others..." which is contrary to the sin and damnation rhetoric that those who preach are most guilty of.
I am amazed, however, by the miracle of all living things on our planet and sometimes attribute this perfection to a "creator" but also accept that evolution is a fact.
As always, your posts are thought-provoking, this one was especially so.
“Burdening a hapless creature with the sole responsibility to bring only perfection into the presence of God, …”
In fact, that’s not what God does. He gave us his son who paid the price for us, so that if we believe, he sees in us the righteousness of Jesus. ”For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.“ Romans 5:19
There is ample empirical evidence that Jesus rose from the dead. And if he rose from the dead, he is who he said he was. And if he is who he said he was, the whole Hebrew and Christian Bible is entirely consistent. Jesus is pictured throughout the Hebrew Bible, by multiple authors writing hundreds of years before he appeared on earth.
”For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners..."
This is the real message. It is one of enslavement - it does not matter the good news one tenders after this crime - the dastardly deed is already done. "The reason I stole your money is... is... so I could invest it and return your money to you 3-fold. See, how good a person I am!!!"
https://theethicalskeptic.com/2022/06/25/the-ex-post-facto-mindset-of-the-predator/
It is the BS of the predator - to offer the good news, after the crime.
This is why Shemyaza (aka Enlil, Saturn, or Yahweh) and the Watchers could not be forgiven for their abuse, rape, enslavement, experimentation on mankind in Enoch I - The crime was too heinous - and whether allegorical or real, this was in the mind of mankind from ancient times for a reason...
"The reason I stole your money is... is... so I could invest it and return your money to you 3-fold. See, how good a person I am!!!"
That’s an interesting comparison. The way I see it, though, is that everything I have, God gave me in the first place. I lost it as a consequence of wanting to be God. After I gave up on that idea, he bought back everything I had lost, and gave it back to me infinitely increased.
OK, this is a predator's trick called quo facto malo. "I stole your money because you were prideful." I made triple the original amount by putting you into slavery to enrich myself in the meantime... But in my merciful nature, I am willing to now share your original money back with you (but I am keeping the fruit of your work and suffering).
It's turtles all the way down on this...
My son would not be accountable for my corruption. To hold him accountable in that context would be THE corruption of the predator (not simply a mistake in judgment).
Paraphrasing: “Jesus Christ is either a liar, lunatic, or Lord”
CS Lewis
I was raised an atheist by atheist. This is the kind of thing I would’ve written in my formidable years to make myself worthy of their praise. Funny thing is, these same atheist think Lord Gore’s carbon credit system is earth justice.
Perhaps the Elohim are behind both mind control systems - Abrahamic religions and race-shaming propaganda.
You sound just like the 17 year old after his first semester at University. You seem so angry, but why? Common you're a smart guy, tell us how you would have done it.
Rejection of original sin, is something anyone can do. All you have to do, is apply a standard of ethics.
If you don't believe in the Bible it's even easier. Just don't think about it and go on with the rest of your life. Nothing ethical about it. You're arguing about something you obviously don't believe in. Just move along and don't write about it.
No, the story of mankind's origins was appropriated (stolen from us, and corrupted into this horror story) - I have a right to this story - free from oppression. It is the property of mankind, not the Church.
Then what is the story and where do you find it? Honest question, no snark.
Thank you. It's a complex and obfuscated saga, one I am telling slowly through my blog. While I cannot reveal everything I have been involved in, and am involved in now - I can summarize many of the inferences I have drawn from those programs and research initiatives. The world is not as it is presented to us.
Ok. If that's the case then the powers that be have a definite advantage. The people you find here would most likely be part of that. That you have found some revelation as to the true nature would be a defect and one that would be rectified I would think.
My religion never made sense to me. I remember being told by a priest when I was a child that I could burn in Hell if I sinned and he went on to describe in detail what it felt like to burn for eternity. It was torture inflicted on innocent children by very warped, twisted men, I lasted with this religion until I was 18yrs old and left without looking back. "You shall know them by their fruits", indeed.